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BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER |
ANGEL |
| Buffy Season 1 | |
| 1. Welcome to the Hellmouth | |
| 2. The Harvest | |
| 3. Witch | |
| 4. Teacher's Pet | |
| 5. Never Kill a Boy on the First Date | |
| 6. The Pack | |
| 7. Angel | |
| 8. I Robot, You Jane | |
| 9. The Puppet Show | |
| 10. Nightmares | |
| 11. Out of Mind, Out of Sight | |
| 12. Prophecy Girl | |
| Buffy Season 2 | |
| 13. When She Was Bad | |
| 14. Some Assembly Required | |
| 15. School Hard | |
| 16. Inca Mummy Girl | |
| 17. Reptile Boy | |
| 18. Halloween | |
| 19. Lie to Me | |
| 20. The Dark Age | |
| 21. What's My Line, Part One | |
| 22. What's My Line, Part Two | |
| 23. Ted | |
| 24. Bad Eggs | |
| 25. Surprise | |
| 26. Innocence | |
| 27. Phases | |
| 28. Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered | |
| 29. Passion | |
| 30. Killed by Death | |
| 31. I Only Have Eyes for You | |
| 32. Go Fish | |
| 33. Becoming, Part One | |
| 34. Becoming, Part Two | |
| Buffy Season 3 | |
| 35. Anne | |
| 36. Dead Man's Party | |
| 37. Faith, Hope & Trick | |
| 38. Beauty and the Beasts | |
| 39. Homecoming | |
| 40. Band Candy | |
| 41. Revelations | |
| 42. 8 Lovers Walk | |
| 43. The Wish | |
| 44. Amends | |
| 45. Gingerbread | |
| 46. Helpless | |
| 47. The Zeppo | |
| 48. Bad Girls | |
| 49. Consequences | |
| 50. Doppelgängland | |
| 51. Enemies | |
| 52. Earshot | |
| 53. Choices | |
| 54. The Prom | |
| 55. Graduation Day, Part One | |
| 56. Graduation Day, Part Two | |
| Buffy Season 4 | Angel Season 1 |
| 57. The Freshman | |
| 58. City of... | |
| 59. Living Conditions | |
| 60. Lonely Hearts | |
| 61. The Harsh Light of Day | |
| 62. In the Dark | |
| 63. Fear, Itself | |
| 64. I Fall to Pieces | |
| 65. Beer Bad | |
| 66. Rm w/a Vu | |
| 67. Wild at Heart | |
| 68. Sense & Sensitivity | |
| 69. The Initiative | |
| 70. Bachelor Party | |
| 71. Pangs | |
| 72. I Will Remember You | |
| 73. Something Blue | |
| 74. Hero | |
| 75. Hush 76. Doomed |
|
| 77. Parting Gifts | |
| 78. Somnambulist | |
| 79. A New Man | |
| 80. Expecting 81. She |
|
| 82. The I in Team | |
| 83. Goodbye Iowa | |
| 84. I've Got You Under My Skin | |
| 85. The Prodigal | |
| 86. This Year's Girl | |
| 87. Who Are You | |
| 88. The Ring | |
| 89. Superstar | |
| 90. Eternity | |
| 91. Where the Wild Things Are | |
| 92. New Moon Rising | |
| 93. Five by Five | |
| 94. Sanctuary | |
| 95. The Yoko Factor | |
| 96. Primeval | |
| 97. Restless | |
| 98. War Zone | |
| 99. Blind Date | |
| 100. To Shanshu in L.A. | |
| Buffy Season 5 | Angel Season 2 |
| 101. Judgment | |
| 102. Buffy vs. Dracula | |
| 103. Are You Now or Have You Ever Been | |
| 104. Real Me | |
| 105. First Impressions | |
| 106. The Replacement | |
| 107. Untouched | |
| 108. Out of My Mind | |
| 109. Dear Boy | |
| 110. No Place Like Home | |
| 111. Guise Will Be Guise | |
| 112. Family | |
| 113. Darla | |
| 114. Fool for Love | |
| 115. The Shroud of Rahmon | |
| 116. Shadow | |
| 117. The Trial | |
| 118. Listening to Fear | |
| 119. Reunion | |
| 120. Into the Woods | |
| 121. Redefinition | |
| 122. Triangle | |
| 123. Blood Money | |
| 124. Checkpoint | |
| 125. Happy Anniversary | |
| 126. Blood Ties | |
| 127. The Thin Dead Line | |
| 128. Crush | |
| 129. Reprise | |
| 130. I Was Made to Love You | |
| 131. Epiphany | |
| 132. The Body | |
| 133. Disharmony | |
| 134. Forever | |
| 135. Dead End | |
| 136. Intervention | |
| 137. Belonging 138. Over the Rainbow |
|
| 139. Tough Love | |
| 140. Spiral | |
| 141. Through the Looking Glass | |
| 142. The Weight of the World | |
| 143. The Gift | |
| 144. There's No Place Like Plrtz Glrb | |
| Buffy Season 6 | Angel Season 3 |
| 145. Heartthrob | |
| 146. That Vision Thing 147. That Old Gang of Mine |
|
| 148. Bargaining, Part One | |
| 149. Bargaining, Part Two | |
| 150. After Life | |
| 151. Carpe Noctem | |
| 152. Flooded | |
| 153. Fredless | |
| 154. Life Serial | |
| 155. Billy | |
| 156. All the Way | |
| 157. Offspring | |
| 158. Once More, with Feeling | |
| 159. Quickening | |
| 160. Tabula Rasa | |
| 161. Lullaby | |
| 162. Smashed | |
| 163. Wrecked | |
| 164. Dad | |
| 165. Gone | |
| 166. Birthday | |
| 167. Provider | |
| 168. Doublemeat Palace | |
| 169. Waiting in the Wings | |
| 170. Dead Things | |
| 171. Older and Far Away | |
| 172. Couplet | |
| 173. Loyalty | |
| 174. As You Were | |
| 175. Sleep Tight | |
| 176. Hell's Bells | |
| 177. Normal Again | |
| 178. Forgiving | |
| 179. Double or Nothing | |
| 180. The Price | |
| 181. Entropy | |
| 182. A New World | |
| 183. Seeing Red | |
| 184. Benediction | |
| 185. Villains | |
| 186. Tomorrow | |
| 187. Two to Go | |
| 188. Grave | |
| Buffy Season 7 | Angel Season 4 |
| 189. Lessons | |
| 190. Beneath You | |
| 191. Deep Down | |
| 192. Same Time, Same Place | |
| 193. Ground State | |
| 194. Help | |
| 195. The House Always Wins | |
| 196. Selfless | |
| 197. Slouching Toward Bethlehem | |
| 198. Supersymmetry | |
| 199. Him | |
| 200. Spin the Bottle | |
| 201. Conversations with Dead People | |
| 202. Apocalypse, Nowish | |
| 203. Sleeper | |
| 204. Never Leave Me | |
| 205. Bring on the Night | |
| 206. Showtime | |
| 207. Habeas Corpses | |
| 208. Potential | |
| 209. Long Day's Journey | |
| 210. Awakening | |
| 211. The Killer in Me | |
| 212. Soulless | |
| 213. First Date | |
| 214. Calvary | |
| 215. Get It Done | |
| 216. Storyteller | |
| 217. Salvage | |
| 218. Release | |
| 219. Lies My Parents Told Me | |
| 220. Orpheus | |
| 221. Players | |
| 222. Inside Out | |
| 223. Shiny Happy People | |
| 224. Dirty Girls | |
| 225. The Magic Bullet | |
| 226. Sacrifice | |
| 227. Empty Places | |
| 228. Peace Out | |
| 229. Touched | |
| 230. Home | |
| 231. End of Days | |
| 232. Chosen | |
| Angel Season 5 | |
| 233. Conviction | |
| 234. Just Rewards | |
| 235. Unleashed | |
| 236. Hell Bound | |
| 237. Life of the Party | |
| 238. The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco | |
| 239. Lineage | |
| 240. Destiny | |
| 241. Harm's Way | |
| 242. Soul Purpose | |
| 243. Damage | |
| 244. You're Welcome | |
| 245. Why We Fight | |
| 246. Smile Time | |
| 247. A Hole in the World | |
| 248. Shells | |
| 249. Underneath | |
| 250. Origin | |
| 251. Time Bomb | |
| 252. The Girl in Question | |
| 253. Power Play | |
| 254. Not Fade Away | |
| # of Buffy Episodes | # of Angel Episodes |
| 144 | 110 |
Using this guide now to watch Angel and Buffy in order as I've never done that before It has worked pretty well so far but Episode 128 of Buffy:"Crush" should be red, as it reveals significant plot developments of Angel and Angel should be fully caught up before watching "Crush"
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Angel and Buffy resynched in red episodes there. Thanks for the suggestion.
DeleteBeen using this list for a marathon. I'd recommend switching 130 and 131. When Buffy finds her mother on the couch, you want to go right into the next episode. There's no need to cut back to Epiphany.
DeleteRecommended order:
Reprise
Epiphany
I Was Made to Love You
The Body
I understand that this was the order in which they were released, but if that was the most important factor, we'd just be watching the entire thing in release order, no?
^^^^ I fully agree and this is the way my husband and I recently watched those episodes. I knew what was coming up we've seen both shows multiple times (just never together hence why we're using this guide) and there was no way I could watch the end of I was made to love you and then break away for an Angel episode so we just watched the two Angel episodes first so we could watch I was made to love and and the body together. Aside from that one bit though this list has been an amazing tool and I'm so glad we are rewatching this way!
DeleteYou have it so the last 3 episodes of Season 4 of Buffy should be watched together, and then the last 3 of Angel S1 all watched at once. In Angel 1:21, Cordelia makes a reference to a plot element in Buffy when talking to Willow. Something that is happening in Sunnydale at the same time. Should the last 3 episodes of the seasons be mixed as well? It sort of throws it off considering you finish Buffy first, but then hear Cordelia talk to Willow about something that is already done and over with
ReplyDeleteI believe the emotional resonance of those Buffy episodes takes precedence over strict chronology concerns of intercutting. Since the Angel episode that follows takes place over a more spread out time period, this is the best way to view them without throwing off the dramatic arc of Buffy's final episodes.
DeleteI feel it's just a slight aside given by Cordelia, which is just enough to help establish that the two story arcs do take place over parallel time frames, but is not significant enough to interrupt the dramatic tension on the single night of Buffy's life.
darla works better after fool for love i feel, as it reveals another side to the boxer rebellion that people may not pick up on in fool for love
ReplyDeleteI disagree, I think "Fool for Love" (Buffy, 5.7) should be seen BEFORE "Darla" (Angel, 2.7)... Otherwise the bit with Spike and Drusilla in "Darla" doesn't make as much sense. Seeing Spike's part of the story first, so we see his viciousness and his kill of the slayer before hearing Darla talk about it makes a bigger impact.
DeleteAll opinions, of course! But there's mine.
This will likely be the most controversial decision I make on this list since "Fool for Love" aired before "Darla" on the night of their premiere broadcasts. And many people are passionate about maintaining that viewing order when rewatching them.
DeleteBut having seen these episodes several times in both the original airing order and in my preferred order on the list above, I stick by my guns that the dramatic build up of "Darla" flows so perfectly into the rising action and climax of "Fool for Love" that I never want to watch them in their original viewing order again. This new order feels like it was destined to be, and I cannot ignore that feeling.
I understand if you disagree, but please give it a shot and at least once I recommend you try watching "Darla" first, then follow it directly by "Fool for Love."
These two episodes together in that order makes the whole experience feel much more like a feature film presentation that could stand alone and be watched by modern audiences as an amazing movie, even if they never had watched a Buffy of Angel episode before.
Over the years, my unique pairing of these two brilliant episodes in this new viewing order has easily grown into my favorite dramatic presentation from the entire run of Buffy and Angel. Therefore, I cannot acquiesce to change them back to their original viewing order. The dramatic payoff of ending the story with Spike approaching Buffy at the end of the episode is too perfect for me to regress back the original order.
I couldn't agree more. I watched it in your order, and it was perfect. The emotional impact of the ending was much greater than the Angel ending. I also liked the rebellion part better when the added depth of Angel's struggle was evident, as I had already seen that part. It is a wonder they didn't put them together like this from the start.
DeleteI think it works better with the reveal that Angel has his soul instead of knowing it from the beginning. We're experiencing the story from Spike's point of view, so it seems like Angel is insecure with his spot given that Spike killed a Slayer. When you see it from Angel's POV, you realize that he's not insecure, he's mortified by the death and destruction.
DeleteI agree. I saw the Buffy episode so many years before I saw the Angel episode. I was amazed at Angelus starting to find this rebellion boring, and thought, how bad must it be to please you??
Deletehttp://josswhedon.blogspot.com/2015/02/why-darla-is-better-watched-before-fool.html contains my reasons for doing it and my response to your comments. Do not post on the guide threads on this topic any more. Thank you.
DeleteI'm doing a Buffython right now and I'm following your order. Two things that I feel should be noted.
ReplyDelete1) Hush and Doomed should be back to back since there is continuous action between those episodes. Hero and Parting Gifts can go back to back to compensate.
2) I know this one will be unpopular, but I think City Of should go BEFORE The Freshman. City Of is more of a sequel to Graduation than The Freshman is. Also, Angel's phone call takes place at the end of City Of, while Buffy receiving it is in the middle of The Freshman (thus Angel's story happens first). Finally, The Freshman doesn't remotely discuss the absence of Cordelia, whereas City Of answers the question before it becomes confusing. (Order then becomes City Of, The Freshman, Living Conditions, Lonely Hearts)
I don't really agree with Point 1. Hush was the mid-season finale, and had a strong conclusion. I think the amount of lapsed time, at least in terms of an Angel episode, gives the opening of "Doomed" an even bigger impact. Like they've been sitting there for that much longer.
DeleteMatt, you make some valid points and I originally took your view on the subject, but on my latest viewing I watched "Hush" and "Doomed" side by side as Trad and many others recommended and I actually enjoyed them both better when paired that way. They dramatically flow into each other very well as a single long episode.
DeleteHowever, one area I disagree with Trad about is his suggestion that I move up "Hero" after the two Buffy episodes. In my opinion, it works much better to have the tragic ending of "Hero," then two episodes of Buffy to watch before returning back to Angel with "Parting Gifts" to help us feel better the passage of time after the death of a major character. It usually felt a little rushed in conventional viewings, but this new way actually feels more appropriate.
Also, I appreciate Trad's second point, but I differ with his opinion. I tried watching it his way, and I still prefer going with Buffy's "Freshman" and then Angel's "City of."
I feel Buffy has always been the emotional anchor of this narrative universe. And it is important for the audience to experience her loneliness and despair start to give way to her starting a new Angel-less life for herself before we see Angel.
Buffy's intro helps set up Angel's solitary existence in Los Angeles as that much more tragic and logical given his love for her. When the episodes are reversed, Angel's own pain is a little more difficult to process and therefore his actions in that episode feel more out of character for him than they would otherwise.
Some of Angel's behavior in the premiere tends to come across more random and petulant than it really should unless you see Buffy first. But when viewed in context of his sacrifice to let Buffy move on with a slightly more normal life, a life he can have nothing to do with, then Angel's behavior makes much more sense and he is becomes that much more sympathetic.
Also, the phone call to Buffy is easier to understand for the audience if you see Buffy answering a random call first, then later seeing Angel placing it and being unable to speak. It also adds more weight to the moment, as the writers originally intended.
In "salvage" Faith is attacked with a bringers knife, so I think that episode should be red as well since you have to know about the First from Buffy to understand the significance.
ReplyDeleteDone. I fully agree. The Bringer's knife is a significant crossover moment that should be prefaced by its introduction in Buffy.
DeleteUpon further advice and re-viewing of those particular episodes, that episode in particular doesn't need to be red since the red episodes after it denote the need to have seen the Bringer's Knife in the previous non-red episode anyway. Dramatically, the episodes don't need to be seen immediately together.
DeleteI just wanted to say how thrilled I am to see this! I've watched Buffy through a few times but never watched Angel. When I finally decided to, I figured it was a good excuse to watch Buffy again as well. As I got to the point where Angel began I wished I knew what order to watch them, and here it is!! Thanks so much for your work.
ReplyDeleteI do agree with Trad that Doomed should immediately follow Hush simply because it follows moments later, but it's not game breaking if you watch it differently.
Thank you Erin and I agree. The list was changed to reflect your suggestion.
DeleteI think "Happy Anniversary" (Angel, 2.13) and "Thin Dead Line" (Angel, 2.14) should be grouped together, then "Crush" (Buffy, 5.14).
ReplyDeleteI like it as is right now. To me, a Buffy episode in between those two Angel eps help to maintain the illusion of a long passage of time of Angel being separated from his usual cohorts.
DeleteI am doing an extensive re-edit of the list this week, and I will be taking into consideration all your comments and advice. If I don't follow through on anyone's advice, I'll reply specifically to their comment to explain why. Thanks everyone for your help. Together we can make this the tightest viewing order possible for the two shows.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the list, I am rewatching Angel and Buffy and really appreciate the time and effort taken to produce this.
ReplyDeleteYou're welcome Maisy, and it is my pleasure. Thank you for your kind remark. Nice Buffy and Angel fans like you make this all worth doing ;)
DeleteI don't think that 216. Storyteller 217. Salvage 218. Release should be highlighted in red as there was no crossovers
ReplyDeleteThis is a tricky area of the viewing order guide that I will be scrutinizing and refining this weekend. But the bringer's knife established in Storyteller does show up again in the hands of Faith's attacker in Salvage, so they are tentatively red episodes to help preserve some of that chronology.
DeleteOk, I'm leaning with your thinking since the red episodes should be in episodes where the strict chronology is vital. And as long as you learn of the Bringer's knife before the run of red episodes, it serves the same purpose. You're right.
DeleteMight be better to watch 139 (Spiral), 141 (The Weight of the World), and 143 (The Gift) in a row, then 140 (Over the Rainbow), 142 (Through the Looking Glass), and 144 (There's No Place Like Plrtz Glrb) in a row, since 140, 142, and 144 are all kinda "To Be Continued" episodes. This way you can watch them together, and still get the crossover between 143 and 144 to line up.
ReplyDeleteI decided to switch around the episodes slightly from their previous order to give both shows a little more breathing room, but I do not want to lose the interconnected vibe of these two stories like many other viewing orders do when showing them entirely on their own.
DeleteI will admit, given the constraints of the two show's narrative structures at that particular point in time, we cannot perfectly line up the episodes without some chronological inconsistencies. So as usual, I decided to lean in the direction of dramatic resonance, and place them in the order that feels the most right.
I am still open to suggestions here. But this is a particularly difficult patch of episodes to harmonize without disrupting the dramatic tension. So far, as of this date, the new placement of these episodes is the best way I can see of contrasting their parallel story lines, ratcheting up the tension, and letting the punches to the gut take their maximum effect.
This is a great list! As a first time viewer (and, consequently, avid fan) this is really appreciated!
ReplyDeleteHowever, I became slightly confused during Blind Date (99) since Cordelia is on the phone to Willow saying that she has been cracking codes as well, which occured beforehand in The Yoko Factor and Primeval (95 and 96). I'm therefore thinking that perhaps War Zone and Blind Date (98 and 99) should be viewed after Primeval (96) and before Restless (97).
I would forgive you for disagreeing since this is an extremely minor point and this is only my first time viewing :)
I personally think its enough that the audience can piece it together while watching the later Angel episode that part of it is concurrent with the previous Buffy story line. I do not want to interrupt the chronology of that humongous night for Buffy, particularly because much of that Angel episode in fact takes place the next day anyway.
DeleteI agree with Michael on this one. Besides, Willow is always cracking codes.
Deletei've been rewatching Buffy and Angel, in the right order with the help of your list for the first time and i have to say i love it! i'm currently just about to watch To Shanshu In LA but so far i haven't seen any problems with the order and i feel you're right about the call between Willow and Cordelia being minor, and that the Buffy episodes should run concurrently. thank you for your hard work :-) xx
ReplyDeleteThank you Nathalie, I appreciate your kind remark. I created a fan edit of all of Angel's flashbacks and put them into a single epic feature-length movie called, "ANGELUS." I would enjoy your feedback on it. It can be found here: https://vimeo.com/102798970
DeleteI'm so glad you made this list. I otherwise would not have thought to watch it in any other order than air date.
ReplyDeleteI made a Google Spreadsheet of your list to better keep track of the episodes I've watched and I thought I should share it with you. You just need to save a new copy to edit it. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MVZOYkEdYvGqbM5lsbS40Q-1rFd18JFsRWCnzYzlpEQ/edit?usp=sharing
Thanks for all your effort in making this list!
Thanks, excellent idea Heather.
DeleteThis list is awesome. Doing the Netflix thing right now.
ReplyDeleteThank you and you're welcome ;)
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteBut I really do appreciate you making this list, I've watched both shows separately and I finally decided to watch them side by side and this list has made the experience so much better!
Deletei'm doing a Buffy marathon at the moment and i intended to watch Angel at the end of series 3.
ReplyDeleteThis article articulated my thoughts precisely, and the comments will no doubt help me fine-tune the viewing order in time for the next marathon (straight after 9 seasons of Supernatural!)
Thanks
Excellent, let us know how it goes MantridDrone.
DeleteCurrently working through this list: just finished Angel Series 1 Episode 11 (Somnambulist) & sticking to your guide for both shows. It's working well and am enjoying the flipping between the two :D
ReplyDeleteI think that the I in Team and Goodbye Iowa should go together
ReplyDeleteI agree with this! We've been doing a marathon and following this order and so far been pleased as punch with it, but we just watched that section of episodes and afterwards I said to my husband that I felt like The I in Team and Goodbye Iowa should have been together.
DeleteI agree with both of you Gio and Lilith, and the viewing order will group those two episodes together. Stopping for an Angel episode between those two Buffy episodes does interrupt its suspense and dramatic tension too much.
DeleteThis is a great list, although there are a few changes I would make. For instance, I would keep the entire Pylea arc together, as well as watching Afterlife right after Bargaining parts 1 and 2.
ReplyDeletePylea arc is great, but I love the fact that in its current split form, it looks like several main characters have been killed on both shows at about the exact same time. It definitely feels more suspenseful. In the past I have favored keeping together certain arcs without much intercutting, but in this case, the intercutting helps improve the dramatic flow of each story.
DeleteSPOILER WARNING for the end of BS5 and AS2: Having a fun adventure in Pylea start DIRECTLY after Buffy's death would be way too jarring for most viewers. It is much easier to show both Buffy and Angel's adventures turning into more deadly scenarios first, then show Buffy's death, then show Angel's reaction to Willow waiting for him back in L.A. to tell him.
It is so much more powerful when shown in these segments that build off each other, rather than as complete standalone adventures. So Angel in Pylea and Buffy's battle with Glory will remain intercut on my viewing list forever.
I do think Afterlife right after Bargaining Parts 1 and 2 is vital though, so thanks for putting up a flag on that one. I'll take care of it immediately. Thanks.
DeleteI think it works better if you watch I Was Made to Love You, The Body, and Forever together. Watching Disharmony in between them takes away from Buffy. You could watch Reprise and Epiphany together before to make up some of the time.
ReplyDeleteReprise and Epiphany comes before Forever. Angel has his epiphany before he visits Buffy after Joyce's death.
DeleteFirst off, I'd like to say that this list is awesome, so thank you for putting it together and maintaining it. And this is coming from someone who is into a third or fourth rewatching of everything, but the first time using this list....and loving it btw.
DeleteAnyway, I'd like to suggest keeping Reprise and Epiphany together, as they really flow into each other as almost like a two-part episode. You could compensate by watching I Was Made To Love You and The Body back to back, which I think works because of the little coda at the end of IWMTLY that leads directly into The Body. I really think that viewing things in this manner would keep the emotions running higher throughout this whole stretch of episodes.
Thanks!
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteGreat list! This has been wicked fun so far!
ReplyDeleteMy only suggestion is to put the Angel season two episodes The Trail and Reunion together. The reveal at the end of The Trial really drives the momentum of Reunion (which is already such a great episode on it's own). Jumping back to Buffy for Listening to Fear and the whole alien storyline kind of dulls the intensity of the two Angel episodes.
Mostly agree with this list. But I don't really like your "every-other-episode"-listing in Season 5 Buffy/Season 2 Angel. It cuts the suspense in weird places. For instance, "Family" should come straight after "No Place Like Home", as it starts the very same night, right after Buffy has returned from the factory. Especially after such an emotional and crucial revelation. While the Angel episode in between can be watched after "Family" and just before Darla, that also works out well considering much of it is about Angel's obsession with her (I might even be inclined to think "Dear Boy", "Guise Will Be Guise" and "Darla" should be watched straight after each other, as the two firstly mentioned sortly build up to "Darla"). I generally prefer watching long stretches of one series before I switch to the other, though, or the story gets too fragmented IMO, so I guess that's my main problem with that list (although the s4 Buffy/s1 Angel-list was great).
ReplyDeleteGreat point, though I still prefer to watch Fool for Love before Darla.
DeleteI agree! I had posted my suggested order for trying to keep the drama of each series together and still watch the linked episodes in order, but my list has disappeared from this site. You can see it here: http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Viewing_order_suggestion_for_Buffy_and_Angel
DeleteThat list is really badly flawed.
ReplyDeleteDarla before Fool for Love is a crime that completely screws up the whole point of the crossover during the Boxer Rebellion and why it was written that way! In Fool for Love, you're supposed to be confused why "Angelus" is with the Fanged Four in 1900, only to find out that this is indeed Angel with a soul and his reaction to Spike is not him being outdone, but rather horrified by Spike killing a Slayer, along with what Drusilla is sensing in the alley behind Angel (and only hinted at in Fool for Love).
And the end of season 4 is also totally wrong, as it ignores one of the crossovers between Cordy and Willow.
Reprise/Epiphany also have to be watched prior to I Was Made to Love You/The Body/Forever (and then you return to another string of AtS episodes). Gosh this list is a mess!
Please don't use this list. Or at least ignore those portions of it.
The actual order if you mapped out which scenes happen on the same days and which are connected right after the next roughly occurs like this (lots of overlap days--and see below about War Zone):
Five by Five / Sanctuary / War Zone / The Yoko Factor / Primeval / Blind Date / To Shanshu in L.A. / Restless
Restless takes place well after To Shanshu in L.A. and is not directly connected to Primeval in a timeline sense.
Interestingly, it is actually impossible for War Zone to take place between Sanctuary and Blind Date and have it make any sense with the timeline concerning Angel's appearance in The Yoko Factor (these episodes happen explicitly within a few days). It had to have taken place prior to Five by Five (not an issue at all in regards to the actual content of events). Though, obviously, one wouldn't watch it that way. You'd need there to be five days before Buffy returns to Sunnydale in the same clothes for that to work. Yeah, meeting Gunn would have to take place prior to Faith.
Oz's full moon days also do funny things to the timeline. The moon situation concerning Halloween/Thanksgiving 1999 will make your head hurt if you actually looked at a calendar, though it is possible to make it work with a bit of out-of-order scene placement (Wild at Heart, except for the last scene with Oz leaving, would have to take place prior to Fear, Itself)!
Also, Buffy's birthday would have to be on January 21 (the only date that remotely works), not January 19, if you don't want the Scoobies going to school on the weekends or MLK, Jr. Day. LOL.
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Delete"Restless takes place well after To Shanshu in L.A. and is not directly connected to Primeval in a timeline sense."
DeleteHow do you figure? The episode occurs the same night as episode 4x21.
Nile, whatever the writer's original intent, "Darla ---> Fool for Love" is dramatically the strongest way to watch the episodes. Period. I've watched them in both orders multiple times and nothing is as strong as ending on Spike with a shotgun at the patio. Period. I will not change it. You are free to make your own viewing order list and have equally insensitive trolls pollute your comment section.
DeleteIf you seriously think that a momentary twist clarifying Angel's conversation with Spike during the Boxer Rebellion is sufficient justification to ignore a far superior and richer entertaining dramatic experience, then you are free to do so. But do not tell my readers not to use my list. Simply offer your own and give them a reason to visit your own webpage where they can in turn troll you as you've done to me. Good luck.
Darla definitely should be watched before Fool For Love. Not only does it fit better with the Darla storyline in Angel, but also because it makes more sense to watch Shadow straight after FFL. Shadow starts directly after FFL finishes with Joyce going for the CAT scan overnight. The group also mention Riley blew up the nest the night before, and Spike tells Riley he spent 'last night' with Buffy. If you put Darla between those two episodes it would fragment it too much.
DeleteWatching order for this batch should be - Dear Boy / Guise Will Be Guise / Darla / Fool For Love / Shadow
Personally, I totally agree that it's better to watch Darla first. Watching Darla first, Spike comes off as Angel no doubt remembered him: a ridiculous fool in the background to Angel's angst. Fool for Love then builds upon what you saw as background in the first part, taking the light-hearted buffoonery, and recasting it as a chilling triumph.
DeleteThe flow of it is far more dramatic to realize that Angel, and you as the watcher with him, so easily underestimate the increasingly comic character, only to realize the much more serious implications.
In contrast, recasting Spike's triumph in Fool for Love as something more juvenile through Angel's eyes lessens it, imho. Especially since, as FfL implies, this could just as easily have been Buffy, on another day, another time (and with a little less plot armor).
But it's not one big story. It's two episodes that share common elements. FFL isn't the denouement of the crossover. Nothing is resolved in either episode.
ReplyDeleteI wrote a response to your comments on "Darla" and "Fool for Love" in this article Nile and Rob: http://josswhedon.blogspot.com/2015/02/why-darla-is-better-watched-before-fool.html
DeleteI like the list, but the Fool for Love/Darla order isn't even my qualm with it. My issue is that there's often too much switching between shows when it would make more sense in certain places to continue to the next episode, either because they take place right after the previous (No Place Like Home/Family) or because a story works better dramatically if you watch a group of episodes in succession instead of switching over (Loyalty to Double or Nothing). But that's just me, I'd be interested to read your thoughts.
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DeleteI agree! I have created a list that I think solves that problem. Check it out here: http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Viewing_order_suggestion_for_Buffy_and_Angel
DeleteI think Buffy's "Seeing Red" and "Villains" are way to important and should be grouped together.
ReplyDeleteThanks for this list, I've just started watching Buffy for the first time and always like to approach things in the proper order!
ReplyDeleteWhile this list is generally good, there are parts of it that I disagree with. Many of these episodes should be grouped together for better effect than just switching off between series. For instance, the last 3 or 4 episodes of each season of Buffy and Angel should be watched one after the other.
DeleteI also prefer to keep the episodes of each series together as much as possible but still watch the linked ones. You can check out my order for doing just that here:
Deletehttp://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Viewing_order_suggestion_for_Buffy_and_Angel
I'm watching the series for the first time and am so thankful for your list. One question, though - I'm using Amazon Prime and it shows an eighth Buffy season, which I haven't found on any watch lists. Can anyone tell me what that's about? I don't want to research too much to avoid spoilers!
ReplyDeleteSeason 8 is the official continuation of Buffy in comic book form (followed by seasons 9 and 10).
DeleteJust wanted to thank author of this site. I'm watching Buffy again (after 5 years since previous watching) and this reading order is really helpful. Don't delete this post. Ever. :)
ReplyDeletewish i had seen this before binging on Buffy only now im 4 episodes away from the end
ReplyDeletewish i had seen this before binging on Buffy only now im 4 episodes away from the end
ReplyDeleteI want share with you how i became a vampire. this something i have dream of all my life and i said to myself that i we do and give anything to belong to this family. Today with the help of DR Alaska am a full member of that family today. All i need was a blood to turn and him provided me with that and today and stronger, faster, hear from afar and many other qualities all thanks to him . If you dream of becoming one here is his contacts dralaskajohn@gmail.com
ReplyDeleteI want share with you how i became a vampire. this something i have dream of all my life and i said to myself that i we do and give anything to belong to this family. Today with the help of DR Alaska am a full member of that family today. All i need was a blood to turn and him provided me with that and today and stronger, faster, hear from afar and many other qualities all thanks to him . If you dream of becoming one here is his contacts dralaskajohn@gmail.com
ReplyDeleteThanks! Great list
ReplyDeleteHi Michael, I've been following your guide and got to the point where Faith first appears on Angel (93: "Five by five"). At the beginning of the episode, Angel calls Sunnydale and speaks to Giles, who tells him Faith skipped town, a week earlier (ep. 87: "Who are you").
ReplyDeleteThe thing is, I think I'd be great to watch those two episodes together. Faith leaving in the back of a truck... followed by her landing in L.A., all fresh and ready to misbehave.
Tell me what you think!
Cheers,
Al.
ps: I've just finished Five by Five, and am starting ep. 94. Maybe my reasoning has a flaw that I'm not aware of yet. If that's the case, sorry for wasting your time!
Hey Michael, first off I´d like to say I like your site. Its made viewing Btvs/Ats that much the better. After my lastest rewatching I was wondering...wouldnt watching "Buffy vs Dracula" right after "Restless" but before the last 3 Ats episodes be a better fit. Or in your opinion does the chronological order mean more then the emotional/contiuneity aspect play better. Given that they are at the end of the seasons. Me personally Ive come to think of BvsD as a season 4 finale since Dawn doesnt show up til the end.
ReplyDeleteI just wanted to echo the previous comments thanking you for this wonderful list. I actually started Buffy for the first time this summer and fell absolutely in love. I was absolutely delighted when I found this watching guide after I finished season 4 of Buffy. I then proceeded to use this list to continue my initial viewing of Buffy alongside my initial viewing of Angel. Suffice it to say it was absolutely amazing. I am basically an emotional mess, but it was amazing.
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ReplyDeleteThank You for your information.kindly visit us.Guida Canali TV
ReplyDeleteHi, I really like this list and have been following it since I started to rewatch these series. I have a suggestion. I think that "I was made to love you" (Buffy S5E15) and "The Body" (Buffy S5E16) should be watched back to back since the end of Episode 15 leads immediately into Episode 16, as Buffy sees the body. So I suggest moving "Epiphany" (Angel S2E16) to before "I was Made to Love You".
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ReplyDeleteThanks for this list. I am currently doing a Buffy/Angel re-watch probably using a combination of DVDs and Netflix (to avoid switching discs a lot). I will follow your guide. Thanks again.
ReplyDeleteShouldn't all of season 1,2,3 of Buffy be highlighted red cause I mean none of this will make sense if you don't watch that
ReplyDeleteOnly the last episode of s3 tho, and the first episode of Angel
DeleteIf spoiler free, maybe try to not have image spoilers. Seth Green's guitarist is hanging around there like part of the team - not how it is early season 2 where I am.
ReplyDeleteI used this guide to watch the shows side-by-side for the first time and it was great. I am now doing it again, and...
ReplyDeleteMay I ask why Dirty Girls should be watched so long after Orpheus?
Their drive back couldn't possibly take that long!
My guess is because those Angel episodes occur one after the other and it's best to watch them one after the other so as to not break up the flow of the story simply to go chronologically.
Deleteas much as I loved buffy, when angel started as a spin-off series, I liked it even better. I thought the all around writing was better, and I loved how they started bringing charactors from buffy over to angel. when season 5 started and they brought over both spike and harmony, I was so loving it, as well as fred's transformation into illuria. I was so sad when angel was cancelled at the end of season 5, because I felt as good as it was, it had room to get even better. and, they ended it on such a major cliffhanger. for years now, I have been hoping for a "buffyverse" reunion film, but it has yet to materialize and I doubt very much it ever will. maybe it will take 30+ years like they did with star wars.
ReplyDeletehas anyone tied together a timeline of tv shows, novels, short stories and comics...? I've been collecting for awhile and would like to start at the beginning and go thru everything in order
ReplyDeleteI tried watching Angel after watching Buffy and I couldn't get into it because I knew Buffy and Angel were existing in the same timeframe more or less and it was frustrating and distracting. Having this list is great. I'm actually into Angel this time around and can appreciate it so much more. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteYou're welcome. And thanks for your wonderful remarks Mrs. MickG. That's in part why I started this whole project to begin with.
DeleteI had a lot of friends who had a hard time getting into Angel, and I kept looking for a good guide to show the ideal way of integrating the two shows together.
I kept getting annoyed by the airing order not working correctly to harmonize the two shows, so I dug deeper. I found a couple of other attempts at guides here and there, such as the excellent PotentialCast / RedemptionCast viewing order list for their respective podcasts, and a few other attempts. But I found myself disagreeing with the way the narrative flowed in even their order, so I made my own list in what I hope most people will one day find to be the most dramatically and emotionally rewarding viewing experience as possible with these two integrated shows.
In many ways, these two shows together have been one of the most significant and amazing viewing experiences I've ever had with television--with the possible exception of Twin Peaks. At the end of the day, I wrote this guide to help people fall in love with Buffy and Angel.
So rather than being the ignored stepchild to Buffy, Angel shines alongside her as a narrative partner that complements and comments on one another, giving the audience a far richer experience than they could ever have while viewing either show alone.
Thank you so much for this!!! It's awesome:)
ReplyDeleteYou're welcome and you're awesome! :)
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ReplyDeleteHello. Why is episode 127 red? There is absolutely nothing of significance. Why is ep 128 Crush red following 127? Shouldn't it be earlier? There were two or three Angel episodes having nothing to do with Darla or Dru before Dru shows up in Crush.
ReplyDeleteI am for the first time following your list while watching Buffy and Angel. To be honest I have only just recently bought everything on DVD and have only seen the shows in full once before (previous to that I had only seen random episodes of them on tv) and that time I watched all of Buffy first and all of Angel after. I was planning to just watch one episode of B and then switch for one episode of A and then back again but for some reason I googled for a better viewing order and found this. I am really glad I did. I have just viewed Darla and Fool for Love and I fully agree with your decision to have them in that order. The flashbacks work really great when seeing it from Angel's point of view first and then from Spike's and the episodes really seem like one really long episode when viewed in this order.
ReplyDeleteThanks Jocke, I appreciate your support and backing me up on that episode order of Darla first, then Fool for Love second. In terms of pacing, themes, and climactic pay off, it works like a feature film thrown into the middle of both series. It's something special to experience that way.
DeleteAnd thank you, Jocke. Watching Buffy and Angel in this intricately interconnected way is seriously fascinating and I agree that it adds a whole new dimension to both shows.
I just read your blog post about Darla and Fool for love, which I hadn't done before, and I must say that I agree with your every word about the viewing order. I don't agree with Rob who comments that the episodes are not dependent on each other. They most definitely are, as you point out so much better than I ever could (one reason being that English is not my first language). To first see the events from Spike's creation and the boxer rebellion from Angel's point of view and then from Spike's was a real wow moment to me.
DeleteI don't know what order Joss Whedon intended these two episodes to be viewed in, they might have been aired in the wrong order for all I know, but I know that they definitely depend on each other and that it will be a very different experience depending on which order you watch the episodes in. I will re-watch these episodes in the reverse order too, probably when I am finished with seasons 5 and 2 respectively, to get both perspectives but I am rather certain that I will prefer having Darla first.
They aren't dependent on each other isn't the same thing as not making the viewing experience fuller. You don't need to have seen Darla to understand and get emotionally invested in Fool for Love and vice versa. Yes, it's a different viewing experience, that's not at issue, just that you don't need to have seen both episodes to understand each story.
DeleteYes of course you can see them separately since they are from two separate but interconnected shows but if you do watch them separately they both are "just another episode", while if you watch them together they become so much more than "just two episodes". The fact that they are so closely linked to each other means that the viewing experience is multiplied several times when viewed together (and even more so if viewed in the order presented here in Michael Warren's list). Pick any two episodes you want, no possible combination will play together as well as these two. So you are right in that they are not dependent on each other in order to understand them but they are definitely dependent on each other to get the higher viewing experience that I am certain that Joss Whedon intended. You claim that "it doesn't seem like one episode at all", this is one of your claims that I don't agree with, when viewed together they do imho.
DeleteI would say that applies to both series as a whole. They are best watched together. It's like two great tastes Episodes like "Pangs" and "I Will Remember You" are closer to being one story than Darla and Fool For Love. That's a case where it's also not one story, but clearly there's a chronological order.
DeleteRob, Jocke and I are right about "Darla" and "Fool for Love." When viewed together in that way, it feels like one story. Emotions are an important part of this viewing guide. Logically, you could come up with a lot of different ways to order episodes. But for me and my guide, the feeling, the emotions, and the dramatic weight as you experience both shows together is what will win out.
DeleteIt doesn't seem like one episode at all. It's two distinct episodes with different themes and the climax with Spike doesn't have anything to do with Angel. You can choose to watch in either order, but it's arbitrary.
ReplyDeleteViewers can watch the order of those episodes however they choose, but to simply repeat the same non-argument over and over again is hardly helping to make your point, Rob.
DeleteIf it is arbitrary for you, that is one thing. But for several people, this is not an arbitrary or random decision and it is annoying to have you attempt to invalidate the discussion altogether.
From now on, any comments that do not contribute to our ongoing discussion in a constructive and substantive way will be removed. So everyone should avoid a dismissive and insulting tone if they want their comments to remain. Contribute. Don't detract.
"Darla" and "Fool for Love" are some of the best episodes of the series. Depending on the order of how they are viewed together, subtle nuanced differences creep up to make the viewing feel distinctly from one another. If that's not the case for you, then good for you.
I wrote an article on this topic and it's my final word on the matter: http://josswhedon.blogspot.com/2015/02/why-darla-is-better-watched-before-fool.html
It's not an attempt to invalidate it, it's a disagreement. I'm confused, are you asking me to explain my point better or is the only way i can't add something constructive to the crossover discussion is agree? I wasn't being dismissive at all. If it's coming off that way, that's not my intention. I thought I was contributing, but if you don't think so, then can you give me an idea of what you consider contributing?
ReplyDeleteWhen I say it's arbitrary, I don't mean that as a pejorative, I mean that you can watch it in either order and I don't see a substantial difference in experience. It doesn't read as one story that begins in one episode and it's plot or themes are resolved in the next.
Rob, disagreement is fine, as is constructive disagreement. But simply adding comment after comment repeating your same points while ignoring the counterclaims being made and pretending they never happened is what I find lacking.
DeleteDiscussion usually involves adding something new and unique to each comment to further the conversation. You frequently post the same point over and over again after someone has made a valid point contradicting what you have said. Including things I have said.
And you are wrong when you say Darla and Fool for Love are not one story. Because as I've explained (including in an article I've linked to you several times) if you watch it in the original airing order, "Fool for Love" first, then "Darla" second, then your argument that they don't feel like the same story rings true. But when viewed watching "Darla" first and "For for Love" second, then they in fact do FEEL LIKE one story.
I don't think you've ever given my viewing order a chance by actually watching the episodes in that order, and because of that I find your arguments needlessly rude and combative.
Because this is how this page works: take or leave my viewing order. If you have a good idea for a change, then make it. If you don't, then simply stating stuff about how the two shows BtVS and Angel aren't the same show, misses the whole point of this article to begin with.
I've never insisted that Buffy and Angel don't stand on their own. What I've said is that both shows are better when viewed together.
And when the episodes are arranged in certain ways, it creates certain effects in the minds of the viewers that add dramatic weight and significance to both shows. That improve both shows by the contrast.
I've explained this in my article, but your insistence in fanning the flames of this debate means I'll repeat it here one final time:
"Darla" and "Fool for Love" when viewed together feel like an experimental narrative feature film following certain common events from multiple points of view. This concept is explored in many films, but "Rashomon" is one of the most popular.
But not only do these two episodes provide beautiful counterpoint to the points of view Angel and Spike, but also they establish a strong narrative about the seeming futility of mortal life and our attempts to find meaning and true love in existence can make one feel completely alone and alienated. Yet there is still something about love that persists in humans, even as vampires, that causes us to aspire for love anyway.
"Darla" and "Fool for Love" form a dyad that is equivalent to a feature film for most people who watch them, particularly in the order I have recommended personally on this article.
The common theme these two episodes share, as I see it, is DEATH and LOVE that Darla is mortal once again and wants to live forever as a demon. And Buffy has demon-like powers and has a DEATH wish.
DeleteAnd Darla has LOVE with Angel, or the closest version of love two vampires can feel for each other. And Darla wants to use that bond and connection as a means of coaxing Angel to destroy her mortal life by turning her back into an immortal demon.
Buffy, meanwhile, has been sensing for a while that Spike is romantically drawn to her, and whether Buffy admits it or not, she is more than a little intrigued by the prospect. And when Buffy is almost killed in a nothing fight with a nobody, she decides to seek some answers from Spike, taking advantage of his feelings for her to help her get valuable information about the last battles Spike had with 2 previous slayers.
Buffy is disturbed by the fact that Spike is right about her starting to develop a death wish. And she is freaked out by Spike directly attempting to kiss her. And Buffy is very patronizing and insulting to Spike as she spurns his advances.
This treatment and her flat refusal of Spike echoing his rejection by Cecily during his mortality as William is enough to make him homicidal and he prepares to kill her. And he is stopped when he sees her crying and that part of him that is still William the Bloody takes over and you see clearly that he is in love with Buffy and he can't bring himself to hurt her, even though the demon part of him is desperate to do just that.
And one fascinating theme that persists through both shows is the difficulty for single, powerful women to carve out a legitimate place for themselves in society.
Darla became a prostitute to become a woman of property without marriage. And now the Slayers have a similar issue of being demon-killing machines that don't really seem to have lives that enable them to have conventional romantic relationships with men in a traditional sense, giving the slayers a sense of being societally ostracized too.
Buffy's mother has a terminal illness most likely (as gauged by Buffy's reaction) and Darla had a terminal illness. And no matter what kind of life you have, you don't ever feel like you've had enough of it with the people you care about.
This is a fraction of the reasons why I feel "Darla" should be viewed first and "Fool for Love" second. They were two different episodes written by two separate writers for two TV shows, but which were coordinated together behind-the-scenes by the authors to complement each other and provide a richer viewing experience when viewed together.
This is not a message board or a forum. This isn't a reddit page. This is a viewing guide with limited comment space and I reserve to use the remainder of the comments for other constructive topics that will arise.
I assert my privilege as the administrator, moderator, and article author to refer all future dissent on this topic of the viewing order of "Darla" and "Fool for Love" to the comments section of my article dedicated to this topic, which you can find at the following address on my blog: http://josswhedon.blogspot.com/2015/02/why-darla-is-better-watched-before-fool.html
DeleteI appreciate the fact that people feel passionately about this subject, but my decision has been made and the order will stand on my guide as it is. These episodes are so much better when viewed in this specified order that I have a hard time believing Rob, or anyone else disagreeing with the decision has even tried to watch it in my order.
But whether you have or haven't tried watching it "Darla" => "Fool for Love," the closing arguments have been made and my judgment was rendered. The appeals process is now over. It will stay in this order. Whatever the original intentions of the writers / producers, the two episodes dramatically flow together perfectly in our new order.
Jocke made some kind remarks agreeing with my decision earlier and Rob, you felt a need to stomp on him and me one more time. It ends here. People have the right to agree with me or disagree with me all they want, but if you disagree with me, do not troll the comments section of my article any longer with further objections. You have been allowed plenty of space on here to express your perspective and it is time to move on and make positive progress.
My reasoning is logical, my conclusion is rational, and my decision is final. Any insinuations made to the contrary in this comment section will be deleted promptly. And yes, Jocke and other readers should be allowed to make nice and supportive comments on my own article without having to defend themselves to you, Rob.
A constructive dialogue advances our common cause of finding an ideal way to watch together Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel. And any remarks that attempting to undermine the very concept of our endeavor here will be deleted.
Thanks Michael. You're doing a great job here. I'm sure you've heard that before but it can never hurt to hear it again.
DeleteThis was never about getting you to change the order. I didn't stomp on anyone, I disagreed but you seem to think that my disagreement is the opposite of well-intentioned. I didn't name call or anything. That's my big issue is that you seem to think that my disagreement is meant as a knock or I'm making something personal and insulting someone. You don't seem to be looking for a constructive dialog. No matter how much I claim that none of this is done in anything other than in the spirit of good will, I don't foresee you taking this in the manner I mean it. I expressed my perspective without pejoratives, ad hominems, or any form of insult. I don't know how else I'm supposed to say it. I never stomped on you, I disagreed politely with Jocke's point that it the episodes were dependent on each other. Sure, it's a fuller experience if you watch both episodes together, just as Buffy and Angel are a much fuller experience if you watch both shows together. But Angel is a series designed to work without ever having seen Buffy. I truly believe in my heart of hearts that if you don't see Fool for Love without having seen Darla or vice versa, you won't be lost if you watch either episode. I'm unsure why you took that as me pouncing, but be that as it may, that wasn't what I was going for. You believe they work together as some experimental film, but I don't see it that way. I prefer much more direct stories that have one beginning, middle, and end. When I say it's not one story, I mean it in the literal sense. The stories compliment each other, but it's not one narrative split over two episodes like the recent crossover with The Flash and Arrow. Where the story begins in episode 1, then climaxes and resolves in episode 2. Spike's story and Darla's story intersect in some amazing ways and the episodes have great comparisons and contrasts, but they are literally two separate stories.
ReplyDeletePlease don't take this as me trying to convince you to change your mind. For one, it never works. People rarely if ever change their opinions in a debate. This reply is only meant to hopefully show that we can disagree and discuss things in a polite way.
Enough about these two episodes, I believe the last 4 episodes of Buffy should be watched together as they more or less pick up right where the last one left off. Angel does go straight from Connor's new house to Sunnydale to help, but I feel that both the last few episodes of Buffy and Angel season 4 work best when watched together for the narrative flow and not to match up timeline wise. I would apply the same reasoning to most of the seasons. For instance, the entire Pylea arc should be watched in one stretch, just as the last 4 episodes of Buffy season 5. I am especially of the belief that the end of Buffy season 6 needs to be watched together.
I disagree, Rob. I would not describe your tone as particularly polite, either. If anything, you come across as rather blunt and combative. And I disagree with your suggested changes and would like you to drop it.
DeleteMy viewing guide is a suggestion, not a command. People can watch the episodes however they like. But this guide represents what I feel provides the strongest dramatic impact on the audience while still interweaving Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel to make them feel like one complementary viewing experience.
Rob, you clearly disagree philosophically with the entire purpose of my guide, and you constantly suggest that since both shows weren't written to be strictly codependent, that every effort I make to enhance the audience's viewing experience is meaningless.
Your suggestions all involve intercutting less between Buffy and Angel. Therefore, I will not take your suggestions, since I am juxtaposing Buffy and Angel together whenever possible.
I feel the Pylea Arc is stronger with a brief Buffy interlude on Cordelia discovering Lorne's decapitated head. Period. Never going to change it. It plays better that way as a jarring shock and sets up the stakes of Buffy's sacrifice in her segment of episodes beautifully.
The only time I will ever play a long stretch of either Buffy or Angel episodes is either when the chronology absolutely demands it and/or if I feel there isn't a meaningful connection between any of those Buffy and Angel episodes.
Rob, maybe your mind is never changed by discussion, but I actually listen and respond, and I've made numerous changes to my guide over the year because of reasoned debate and discussions. But when people act like assholes, I tell them to make their own list and leave mine alone.
In your own viewing, you can do whatever makes you happy, Rob. But interweaving and juxtaposing Buffy and Angel episodes makes for a far more interesting and enriching viewing experience. I prefer it the way it is in all the sections you have suggested change.
My guide is still a work in progress, and only the red episodes are the ones that absolutely have one hundred percent improvement in viewing in an exact order. All other non-red-highlighted episodes are suggestions for meaningful contrast and dramatically impactful storytelling dyads, as I see it.
I am even willing to occasionally interrupt the flow of a story line that occurs all in one night, like in Angel Season 4, when the corresponding Buffy episodes complement the storytelling sufficiently to warrant a glimpse at the other show.
Again, I have watched the two shows like this before and it opened my eyes to a lot of things and made re-watching the two shows far more interesting and entertaining than I had thought possible. And when I see a place for a meaningful way to contrast Buffy and Angel's parallel journeys, I jump at the opportunity to do so, no matter what.
There are only a few places in the concurrent run of the two shows where cutting back and forth frequently between the two shows felt too jarring and where meaningful contrasts were more effective in broad strokes. I feel we have pinpointed those areas accurately, and I will not add more unless a compelling reason is explained.
So Rob, I disagree with you. I will not make those changes. I do not feel the two shows need much room to breathe on their own.
Both shows feel better to me when viewed together, contrasting one another beautifully whenever dramatically warranted, and since that is the whole purpose of my guide, any suggestions that doesn't contribute to the stated purpose of this guide will be ignored.
I did drop the issue. I'm not asking you to change the order. I'm not sure what phrases you consider impolite or combative, and I'm not sure how many other ways to say I'm not out to force anyone to change their opinion. I do like to get in discussions and well meaning debates. I've never thought it was a command to watch them in your order.
Delete"you clearly disagree philosophically with the entire purpose of my guide, and you constantly suggest that since both shows weren't written to be strictly codependent, that every effort I make to enhance the audience's viewing experience is meaningless." This is something I don't understand at all. I don't know where you got the idea that I disagree about the overall experience being better when watching Buffy and Angel together. As far as I can tell, we disagree the most as it pertains to FFL and Darla. Other than that, I love the guide. There are a few changes I might make to the overall order, but the reason I came to this site is because I love both shows and enjoy discussing the issue of what order to watch the episodes in with others. As to your point about juxtaposition, that's not my preference, but I like hearing your perspective as to why you change back and forth. I think there's been a breakdown in communication as I'm not suggesting watching Buffy all the way through then Angel or merely intercutting less. I agree that the first few episodes of Angel and Buffy season 4 can be switched back and forth as they are mostly stand alones, but I think there are specific instances where switching interrupts the story too much in the middle of the action. I hadn't taken into account your view about the contrast and juxtaposition, which i found genuinely interesting. I do go back and forth as well though in ways that differ from your list. I like the contrast in many ways as well, though in the case of something like the episodes after Tara is murdered and Willow goes dark, I'm of the mind that interrupting the flow of that story feels like stopping a movie midway through. There's also not that much contrast between the end of season 3 of Angel and season 6 of Buffy. They are amongst the darkest seasons of both shows so I don't think they are that big of a contrast except the endings. Angel's ends on a down note, whereas Buffy: season 6 ends hopefully and on a cliffhanger. Admittedly I watch the shows on DVD, so switching back and forth is more of a hassle, but I prefer watching the last four episodes of Angel: season 3, then the last 4 of Buffy season 6. That's just my preference.
Do you watch the shows on Netflix or something? I watch them on DVD, which makes switching more of a hassle. And I'm not asking or demanding any changes, just putting out a friendly suggestion, not merely to you but to anyone who might read the comment section.
I have watched them on DVD and recently I've watched them on Netflix. So while I understand the frustrations of switching discs back and forth, it's nothing I haven't done in the past. And therefore, I do not regard viewing format for the purposes of this chronological viewing guide.
DeleteI created this list to simply reflect what I feel is the strongest presentation of Buffy and Angel episodes to enhance the character development and parallel storytelling of both shows. Again, the shows might be separate entities, but they are also uniquely coordinated and I enjoy that aspect of their mutual storytelling.
I'm particularly interested in parallel themes between Buffy and Anel episodes, so whenever possible, I like to go one Buffy episode, one Angel episode. I only depart from that model when the continuity demands it, or when there is a particularly strong dramatic reason to keep one show's episodes locked together.
I feel both shows are inherently more interesting when viewed in tandem, and treated as two contiguous stories being advanced side by side. I tend to avoid viewing changes that would distract from preserving that illusion.
Generally, I'm not looking for excuses to join multiple episodes together from one show. I'm much more interested in contrasting episodes from both shows. But when the unfolding narrative benefits a lot from keeping certain episodes together, I won't ignore that either. But it requires a compelling reason for me to do so.
I saw some scattered episodes of 'Buffy' for the 1st time in Oct 2015 on the FX channel; I was immediately engrossed. I soon realized I was missing the 1st 3 seasons, as well as some cool characters, such as Oz & Cordelia. Then I began to ponder: Where does 'Angel' fit into all of this? Does 'Angel' follow 'Buffy' or are they intertwined? So I Googled it and found this article. Now I am totally stoked for the Buffy/Angel experience (just finished Buffy season 1 last night). Thanks for putting this together.
ReplyDeleteCongratulations on discovering the BuffyVerse. Once you've gone through Buffy and Angel, I'd definitely recommend checking out Joss Whedon's Firefly and its sequal feature film Serenity. He's a great writer / director.
DeleteI actually had a similar experience stumbling on Buffy re-runs on FX, too. That's how I first discovered the writing of Joss Whedon and it's seriously going to be an amazing ride ahead.
This is awesome! I'm beginning a full rewatch and this is going to be very helpful to navigate what I already knew was a sticky crossover web. I would love and easily printable version to hang on the wall. Is there one? Thank you!
ReplyDeleteThere is a google docs version of it floating around, although you can just copy and paste the part you want on a word processor of your choice and the formatting should hold. You're welcome and enjoy!
DeleteAww, no shiny poster with graphics ;-) That's ok, I'll copy/paste. Thanks again!
DeleteYeah, unfortunately not yet. Maybe once I comb through the viewing order one more time in an attempt to finalize it, then I will make a final "shiny" version. And you're welcome!
DeleteThis is fartastic, thank you !!! I love bangel
DeleteI did the basic cut and paste and it certainly holds. I'm looking forward to re-watching these series again. Thanks for this guide. I've tried a few in the past and was a bit disappointed. Looking forward to yours and can tell you really put some thought into the best viewing experience. Thanks so much!
DeletePS I'll be checking back to see if there is a final "shiny" version! Ha!
Can I ask what your reasoning is for having Disharmony inbetween The Body and Forever? First time viewer here. And the cute, quirky reentrance of Angel back into the club seemed to disconcert the emotional toll of Joyce's death. While that may be the point, I feel that The Body and Forever belong together. They tell two parts of the same story. The Body starts with Buffy coming to terms with Joyce's death and ends with Dawn doing the same. And Forever starts with Dawn grieving and ends with Buffy doing so. They're intertwined. And Angel's sidenote with Harmony makes no sense in that way anyway. I would suggest I Was Made to Love You/Epiphany/Disharmony/(possibly even Dead End)/The Body/Forever/Intervention or something to that effect.
ReplyDeleteThe primary reason is because The Body is the dramatically weightiest moment of the show and it deserves some time to breathe afterwards. Simply pushing forward with the narrative after that major character death seemed like a mistake.
DeleteIt's better to take a break from that existentially bleak moment, catch up with Angel and coincidentally get the hook at the end of the Angel episode that directly leads to Angel returning to Sunnydale in the next Buffy episodes.
Again, no one is telling anyone else how they need to watch these shows, but my guide was designed to help make crossovers such as this make more sense.
I'm much more likely to fiddle around with the episode order when there is simply a reference about what is happening simultaneously in both shows. When there is a literal crossover, I absolutely believe in setting those up to make as much sense continuity-wise as possible.
But that's what I don't understand though. It makes no sense chronologically. The episode ends with Angel buying Cordy clothes. How does that segue into Angel heading to Sunnydale? And Cordy's conversation with Willow is also offputting. Willow tells her that Harmony is a vamp and that she's a lesbian in a typical chipper yet worried Willow fashion. But she doesn't mention Joyce's death at all? Or at least seem sad or distracted about it? It's odd.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI've just asked the same, the end of Disharmony is Cordy getting the clothes from Angel, or is there something that has been cut from the online episodes like a phone call or something?
DeleteI just watched this for the first time as well and i regret watching disharmony in between the body and forever. It serves no purpose, has no relevant plot points, and turns my emotions into a yo-yo to bounce back and forth with these unrelated disjointed storylines. Forever should me watched directly after the body. You could watch disharmony at any time and it wouldn't change or spoil the buffy storyline, so it's importance in red makes no sense to me.
DeleteThis is amazing. This is my first time viewing Buffy and Angel, and I had no clue where to start. Thanks for putting in so much work to make this great list available for people like me who are unfamiliar with the series but want to get the most out of them. It's really great
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ReplyDeleteWhy isn't Hero red? It definitely ties in to the rest of that arc.
ReplyDeleteThe red episodes don't highlight which episodes finish an arc or are integral to the season; they are episodes that require you to be 'up to date' with both Buffy and Angel in order to fully appreciate them. In essence, they're highlighted for the binge watchers who would prefer to watch large chunks of each show, rather than swapping back and forth on a regular basis.
DeleteSo whilst Hero is important for Angel going forth, it requires no recent knowledge of Buffy and is therefore not red.
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ReplyDeleteThanks a lot for the information! I have been wondering about buying classic dresses online, and now I've the tools and hopefully the guts to complete it.You may check 2016 upcoming dress here.
ReplyDeleteWow! I had no idea that there was still a Buffy/Angel site still going. I'm delighted! I thought it was just me that still watches them, as they're still the best tv programmes ever.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI love this list.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I was surprised about in terms of order were the episodes "I Was Made to Love You" & "The Body" and "Reprise" & "Epiphany." Since none of these episodes has a crossover, but both "I Was Made to Love You" and "Reprise" leave us with cliffhangers for the next episode, would it not make sense to order it like I've laid out below?
129. Reprise (Angel)
130. Epiphany (Angel)
131. I Was Made to Love You (Buffy)
132. The Body (Buffy)
I saw in comments above that some people had ideas about the episodes following these, but I don't see any continuity issues with the order of the episodes I've listed. Your thoughts?
[This is an edited version of my above deleted comment, since I could find no way to edit my previous comment.]
I've watched Buffy 1-7 plenty of times, and Angel 1-5 plenty of times, but never like this. Thank you to everyone who contributed to this list! I'm re-watching now and up to "Halloween". Now I'm all prepared for Angel leaving Sunnydale :)
ReplyDeleteGreat post! Thanks for this information, is really helpful for us. Have a nice day Jay! :)
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wow. this is intense. I've just been going one for one.
ReplyDeleteStarting with Buffy. Now at season 6/3 and realising Angel should go first.... But i havent had any issues with continuity watching it the other way round until now?
Buffy Season 5 "No Place Like Home" ends and "Family" picks up the same night (Buffy is wearing the same clothes) so they should be viewed one after the other.
ReplyDelete"Fool for Love" and "Shadow" also end/begin within a 24 hour period
DeleteJust here to say that i love this guide and to thank everyone that made the list what it is now. 😁
ReplyDeletethank you for creating this! I am totally geeking out right now! 😍😍😍
ReplyDeletethank you for creating this! I am totally geeking out right now! 😍😍😍
ReplyDeleteFor angel season 4 episode 15 Orpheus should be watched before the season 7 episode 18 of buffy. Got me confused when I watched buffy first
ReplyDeleteLoved this! Now I am looking for a series, animated and comics suggested order... if you have ideas or suggested blogs would love your input...
ReplyDeleteJust finish watching the whole thing. Thank you so much for making this list! It improved my experience, absolutly!
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ReplyDeleteDamage, Angel season 5 episode 11 should be in red as well
ReplyDeleteThanks for putting this together! It really helped me to fully appreciate the story. I just finished Buffy season 7, now all I have left is Angel season 5.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry for the negative feedback, but it might be helpful to other viewers. Firstly, when Faith leaves Sunnydale (I think it's Buffy episode 'who are you') and then turns up in Angel (I think '5by5') it felt so disjointed for me watching it in the order recommended here. Way too much time had passed between these two events that I'd forgotten about Faith and was surprised she turned up in Angel and could barely remember the story from Buffy. Then to have Giles say only 1 week had passed, I felt so out of whack. The second disappointment for me was watching Darla before Fool for Love as recommended. As I've never watched either Buffy or Angel before, I'll never be able to watch it as it was supposed to be with fresh eyes. I wish I could have seen Angel's reaction to Spike killing a slayer, not realising he had his soul. This order (Darla then FFL) really lessens a lot of the dramatic impact of the narrative. And it just makes sense that the Angel/Darla arc ends with her leaving Angel, rather than Spike comforting Buffy. I know a lot of effort was put into this list, and it shows the passion of the author. But after having 2 story arcs being 'ruined' by this list, I'm going to stick with the one on BuffyFest.
ReplyDeleteI agree "Fool For Love" should definitely be watched BEFORE "Darla" always. Those two stories aired on The WB originally on the same night, Buffy first at 8pm then Angel right after at 9pm I believe.
DeleteSo not only are your points valid but the Buffy episode is clearly the part 1 and Angel the part 2. These two episodes should always be viewed in this order always, that's my opinion. I think swapping them ruins the reveal not realizing Angel had a soul when Spike killed the slayer.
It is supposed to make you think Angel is envious of Spike because he killed a slayer first, then in the Angel episode we see that isn't the case, he's just disgusted by it and that is the way it should be revealed.
Hi Michael, thank you for putting together this wonderful viewing list - it has been a great resource for me when going back and watching the shows again.
ReplyDeleteI had one question, is there any reason why you put Angel Season 2, episode 1 (Judgement) before Buffy Season 5, episode 1 (Buffy vs. Dracula) from a narrative standpoint?
Great to see episodes.
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ReplyDeleteI never knew this page existed, I was so glad to find this, I am a huge Buffy and Angel fan and a definitive crossover method is something fans surely need. I've rewatched both shows many times but always doing all 7 seasons of Buffy first and then all 5 seasons of Angel afterwards.
ReplyDeleteI did try once to do one episode of Buffy then one of Angel starting with Buffy season 4 and Angel season 1 but I didn't like hoping back and forth between shows one episode at a time. I think it's better doing a few of each before switching and this guide has been very helpful for that very purpose!
I was always hoping that someone would work it out and from checking out the list and the tons of comments underneath it this has been excellent work. Thank you for taking the time for making this list as well thank you to all the fans who commented to make the great suggestions to improve the list even further. Buffyverse fans are just great, thanks to all of you!
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ReplyDeleteI think Waiting in the Wings and Couplet should be viewed together because the beginning of Couplet takes off right at the end of Waiting in the Wings.
ReplyDeleteThanks for putting this episode viewing order together! It's been awesome for watching the shows side by side.
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Ok, ran into a problem. Yoko Factor, Primeval, Warzone and Blind Date. Yoko Factor and Primeval are both back to back, so how is it in Blind Date, cordelia is talking to willow about decrypting files?
ReplyDeleteWhy end angle when they were finely going up against wolfram & hart for real. I want to know what happens to them, do they die, do they survive, what happens!?
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if this page is still being edited, but I'd recommend a small change to Season 5/2. For the series of episodes surrounding Body, intercutting with Angel really takes away from the overall drama. I've heard this sentiment echoed elsewhere, but I'd recommend:
ReplyDelete129. Reprise
130. Epiphany
131. I Was Made to Love You
132. The Body
133. Forever
134. Disharmony
Epiphany should definitely be before the arc following Made to Love You, but that arc should definitely be watched together, imho. Disharmony could easily be slotted in after the arc, and really only disrupts the consistent tone of the arc.
Thanks for your consideration, and thanks for providing this great guide!
The freshman and city of angels should be red because they cross over with Angel phoning Buffy.
ReplyDeleteJust watching these series for the umpteenth time, but this time it's with my kids and their first time. Loving the order and time and effort it took to work this stuff out. Great work.
ReplyDeleteI’m wondering if you have any suggestions to incorporate the Buffy motion comics in this. I’ve gone through this suggested watching order before, but am running through it again and would like to add Buffy “season 8” to it. Any suggestions?
ReplyDeleteI love this list, and have used it to enjoy the Buffy/Angel story a few times! Thank you for creating it!
ReplyDeleteHello
ReplyDeleteMy 16-year-old and I were thinking self-isolation gives us the perfect opportunity to watch Buffy and Angel in order and saw this when I started figuring out how to sync them up. Suddenly my work is done! Thank you! 🙌
ReplyDeleteSomething to do do during quarantine! Thank you!!
ReplyDeleteWhat an amazing thing you have done; helping others to enjoy a brilliant story. Thank you so much!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis has been an amazing list! It's helped us out loads throughout quarantine. The only minor change I would make is around Joyce's death. I personally found it made more sense to watch it:
ReplyDelete127. The Thin Dead Line (Angel)
129. Reprise ( Angel )
131. Epiphany ( Angel )
128. Crush ( Buffy )
133. Disharmony ( Angel )
130. I Was Made to Love You ( Buffy )
132. The Body ( Buffy )
134. Forever ( Buffy )
And then back to Angel! Just in case anyone else was wondering <3
I've always watched these series in the way they were aired but I'm fascinated by the comments across the years and the passion and love for these series.
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for keeping Btvs and Angel relevant and timeless.
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I'm gonna try this out. Watching both for the 1st time and I'm a little excited :)
ReplyDeleteThis is perfect! Thanks :) I've only watched Buffy once, and I've never watched Angel, but I decided I wanted to watch them both side by side. This information is just what I was looking for!
ReplyDeleteThank you so much! I'm watching both for the first time and I'm religiously following your guide :) I'm at the end of season 5 though and I got the impression that 132. The Body and 133. Disharmony should be switched, even if I see that you've put them both in red.
ReplyDeleteThe Body is such an amazing and powerful episode, that I believe it needs something with a little more gravitas and importance than... Harmony to follow it directly. Disharmony just seems so out of place there, and Harmony left Spike a couple episodes earlier so it would make sense for the episode to be placed earlier.
Plus, it's REALLY weird to have neither Angel, Cordy or even Wes, and most of all Will on the phone, say absolutely nothing about Joyce death. I feel The Body and Forever should be watched together, Disharmony really took me out of it.
Anyway that's just my take and I don't even know if you're monitoring comments anymore ahah
(I'm saying to switch them but honestly I feel like Disharmony could go really well before I was made to love you as well. I actually think it's better that way now that I'm thinking about it, because The Body really needs its space and it ties directly with I was made to love you)
DeleteCurrently rewatching and I feel that Episode 131 should come before 130. The end of 129 and 131 go together, just as the ending/beginning of 130 and 132. It breaks the feel of the story line in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteI've been using this to watch through the entire show in order, and it's fantastically helpful.
ReplyDeleteHowever, would it be possible to get each one labelled with the episode in the series? That would help me keep track of which ones I've watched so far, since the streaming platforms I'm using only show numbers until you get into them.
For example, All4 shows me that my next Angel episode is "Series 1 Episode 18", but I need to count down the list to see that I actually need to watch Buffy S4 E18/E19 first.
So glad I found this list for the viewing order! Currently finishing up final season of Angel!
ReplyDeleteI watched both shows when aired here in Mexico many years ago with a pace of 1 to 1 and I loved them, now I'm watching them as you suggest and I believe this is amazing, just finished Buffy S4 and Angel S1 and I'm thrilled, this is an awesome job, I love it! Thank you so much.
ReplyDeleteHuh here I thought I get watch Angel's Grand finale ,Coz Season 5 kicks all the Buffy's and Angel's Angel's seasons (oh btw Buffy's final season sucks ass)but it ended in cliffhanger/sort of implied ending(I guess)....It is such a bummer it got cancelled
ReplyDeleteAnyway Gonna watch Babylon 5 ...I heard the ordering of that show is a nightmare to begin with...
DeleteBuffy,Season 7 episode 6 aka episode 199. A preview of a certain Turian from the Mass Effect trilogy. And btw thank y'all for the order guide.
ReplyDeleteI think (86. This Year's Girl) and (87. Who Are You) should be in red since they involve faith and that continues into five by five
ReplyDeleteThanks very much. I agree with the people saying that it makes sense to watch The Body and Forever together
ReplyDeleteI just did a full rewatch starting with Buffy Season 2, accidentally I was only intending to watch season 2 and got carried away. Looping round and ending on Prophecy Girl worked surprisingly well for me.